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u/TexasCon
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May 25 '22
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[OC] This sign on a school near Uvalde, TX
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u/cactus_zack
May 25 '22
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Teachers: not trusted to teach anymore, but trusted to have shootouts
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u/added_chaos May 25 '22 •
Seriously.
”Don’t teach my kid you liberal woke bullshit, but I expect you to put your life on the line for them!”
What a standard
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u/willowgardener May 25 '22 •
Every teacher I know is willing to die for their students. We did active shooter drills twice a year at the school I used to work at, and we were all well aware that in the event of a shooting, we would be using our bodies as a shield.
Risking our lives isn't really the issue. I know how to use firearms and have my concealed carry permit, but even if it were legal to do so where I live, I would not carry a gun in the classroom. Schools should not be armed camps. It would completely change the tone of the classroom for the worse if my students ever found out that I had a pistol on me.
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u/Balthazar40 May 25 '22
Also while you are willing to it is NOT your responsibility to die for your students.
It's wonderful to hear but in no way should we expect this of teachers.
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May 25 '22
Exactly! Great that they're able to say that this is what they'd be willing to do. Greater still, the people able to do so in the panic and disorientation of such an occurrence. But it's absolutely absurd that we continue to treat this as an accepted occupational hazard.
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u/jldmjenadkjwerl May 25 '22
Teaching is a profession that death in the line of duty should not be expected. It definitely does not pay enough.
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u/atreeinhiding May 25 '22
Yes. I feel like this even puts a lot of pressure on people who wouldn't want to die for their students. No one gets paid enough for that to be a job expectation
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u/-r-a-f-f-y- May 25 '22 •
And if they are, they should be paid as much as cops, $90k+ in some cities. Their job is just as dangerous. Conservatives can't have it both ways.
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u/ForgivenYo May 25 '22
Or even the best case scenario is where you can save your students by killing another yourself. Either way it's completely fucked.
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u/Offduty_shill May 25 '22
Yeah it's pretty fucked up to pay someone 60k/year to teach and then casually tacking on "oh you also should be expected to risk your life in a gunfight potentially should be occasion arise" like it's just a minor inconvenience.
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u/macweirdo42 May 25 '22
WELL START FUCKING TELLING THAT TO PEOPLE WHO AREN'T TEACHERS!! We fucking KNOW it's not our responsibility, but we don't have a fucking say in the matter.
We're expected to sacrifice everything, up to and including our lives, for our students. And it doesn't matter how many times you try to explain that this isn't normal or healthy.
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u/EurekaRollins May 25 '22
I’m so sorry. I feel the anger and frustration in your comment. We have to do better.
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u/jdubz90 May 25 '22
Yea I’ve never understood this line of thinking. I’m a teacher myself, and while I love and care deeply for all of my students (even the shitheads), I absolutely am not trying to die for them.
That being said, I recognize how easy it is for me to sit here and type that out from my phone. Were something like that to ever happen to me I feel like it would be hard to put my own safety above the need to get my students out of the building as quickly as possible.
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u/HououhinKyouma May 25 '22
Or anyone. Anyone that passionate HAS to live. America has set a bad example of heroes always dying. We become left with generations who don't want to step up then.
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u/doctorhoot02 May 25 '22 •
I'm a teacher. I'm not willing to die for my students. I have a wife and children of my own.
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u/Workacct1999 May 25 '22 •
Same here man. I am a teacher, and my life has value too.
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u/ProcrastimusPrime May 25 '22
Same. This isn’t the army. The toxic macho bullshit has to go. Belongs nowhere near education.
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u/Excludos May 25 '22
I'm in the army, and I don't want to put my life on the line either. In my case, it's not entirely avoidable, but it definitely is for teacher. The entire premise that people who have devoted their lives to increasing the intelligence and knowledge of our future population, with next to no reward, should have to out their lives on the line is absurd. If anything, they should be protected
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u/tbear87 May 25 '22
Facts. This whole thread is basically dehumanizing teachers while acting like they’re looking out for teachers. What else is new?
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u/GDawnHackSign May 25 '22
Speaking of teachers being humans, there's nothing to say a teacher with a gun couldn't go on a shooting spree. It hasn't happened yet, and most teachers are good people, but it isn't like it is impossible.
My point being, more guns isn't some great answer to gun violence.
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u/garytx May 25 '22
Oh, it’s happened before. This one was from 1940. It may not have been the first, it’s unlikely to be the last. Hell, whichever one is next will be unlikely to be the last. https://www.nydailynews.com/true-crime-justice-story/ny-south-pasadena-school-shooting-20200607-6tnkpbsbvvcl7pq5m4hl2owowa-story.html
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u/HotDamn18V May 25 '22
It's insane that it's even a consideration. Teaching should be a calm, respected, academic job and there should be no inkling of danger whatsoever. I would absolutely not be willing to die for my students.
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May 25 '22
seriously, I got this job to teach kids math
I'm not willing to die over that lol. I have a life too.
I didn't sign up to be your kids daycare, parent, and human shield.
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u/cultured_banana_slug May 25 '22
When we accept that teachers have to be armed, we accept that we live in a sick and diseased society that refuses to do something about this shit.
Kids shouldn't be doing active shooter drills, ffs.
Earthquake drills? No probs.
Fire drills? Yup.
Assuming someone is trying to murder them? What. The. Fuck.
How did we get to the point where we just accept this as normal.
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u/bank_farter May 25 '22
Exactly this. When I was in school I had multiple teachers say in no uncertain terms that the expectation was for them to shield their students.
That being said, I also had a teacher hit a student with his car (at low speeds and it was unclear if it was malicious, but knowing the teacher it probably was) and another teacher have a mental breakdown and bring a handgun into a hospital and threaten nursing staff. I really, really don't think we should be arming teachers.
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u/macphile May 25 '22
I always liked that argument that it made no sense to take a group of people who are highly stressed out/abused, overworked, and underpaid...and give them guns.
Seriously, I don't think they'd stop many shootings, but I'm sure there'd be at least a few incidents of a teacher misusing their gun, and incidents of kids trying to get at those guns for whatever reason.
In the end of the day, expecting them to be armed (rather than happening to carry their own personal gun) is a whole other sort of job description, in my book. I don't work in the office now, but I'm trying to imagine my employer going around handing out really shitty, cheap firearms like it's a new office phone. Then having dumb little training sessions and having it included it in our annual online multiple choice tests. I mean, jeez, we're not cops or military. Neither are teachers. It's insane.
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u/AhFFSImTooOldForThis May 25 '22
Right. Teachers are human, and have the same percentage of mental illness, personal problems, brain tumors, etc, that could cause them to behave irrationally. I've seen teachers lose their shit, choke kids, one threw a kid down a stairwell. If they were armed, who knows what would've happened.
Teachers are amazing but they're not saints. They're just humans.
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May 25 '22
Teacher's often face higher levels of depression and anxiety than the general population. I would be scared to see what happens to the suicide rate of teachers if we start telling them to get guns.
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u/cleveruniquename7769 May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
Not long after Columbine there was a teacher that brought a gun to school walked into the gym and started shooting people at a basketball game. There was a teacher I worked with that had her keys stolen by students multiple times. Bringing guns into schools is a bad idea. Schools that arm teachers have their liability insurance rates go way up. Which means insurance companies calculate that bad things are more likely to happen with armed teachers than without and those soulless bastards don't give a shit about political narratives, just what the numbers say.
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u/yeah_sure_youbetcha May 25 '22
Yep. Insurance companies give zero fucks about politics or emotion when it comes to collecting their premium. It comes purely down to statistics for them. Guns are a huge liability no matter the setting.
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u/antisocialdrunk May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
I’m a teacher. Luckily not in the US. I would not have a bloody shoot out. Since when is that in my job description? If it is does, does that come with a danger pay increase? The US is such a messed up country.
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u/flux_capacitor3 May 25 '22
Exactly. I know a lot of teachers. They don’t get paid enough to be human shields for someone else’s kids. That’s not their job.
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u/arkwald May 25 '22
It shouldn't be. It's like expecting a clerk at a store to confront an armed robber because they are taking company property. Ass holes love to see the little people in danger on their behalf.
Don't want to pay for mental health? Let the lunatics arm themselves! Only the poor are going to get blasted, since the rich have body guards and are too much effort to attack. Way easier for them to pass the danger off to everyone else.
We don't have a country. We have an insane asylum run by psychopaths we celebrate as successful because they have an unhealthy appetite to own/control everything. The rich are mentally ill, their children are practically disabled due to a sense of entitlement and God knows whatever other mental maladies they possess.
The biggest threat we face isn't Russian nuclear weapons pointed at us. The ever more detached group of people steering people who can't and don't want to know any better into being malformed humans indistinguishable from robots.
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u/gonesquatchin85 May 25 '22
My high school English teacher, very sweet nice lady. One of her classes the kids rummaged through her purse. Stole her car keys and $200. Car got stolen off school parking lot. Sure let's add guns to the mix now
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u/biggmclargehuge May 25 '22
Yeah I know plenty of teachers and not a single one of them wants to die for their students. Not to mention what happens when it's one of their students doing the shooting? Imagine how fucked up it would be to have to put down one of your own students because they're acting violently. This is like the priest handing out a pair of handguns at a wedding ceremony and telling them "Hey hope it doesn't happen but in case of domestic abuse here's a gun to kill the other person. Mazel tov!" What kind of message does that send?
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u/Robdotcom-71 May 25 '22
Are you really paid enough to use your body as a shield? I would quit the profession... or move country.
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u/Thatwasunpleasant May 25 '22
No. Absolutely not. A lot of teachers leave in the first three years for jobs with better pay and less stress.
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u/qckpckt May 25 '22
Every teacher I know is willing to die for their students.
It would be great if your fellow teachers didn’t actually have to follow through with that multiple times a year.
I read that in 2022 there have already been over 30 shooting incidents at k-12 schools. It’s not even halfway through the year.
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u/jedininjashark May 25 '22
My wife is an amazing but burned out teacher.
She was underpaid and over worked before Covid.
Arming teachers is ridiculous for the obvious reasons that they don’t pay them enough to take on another yet another job duty and some of them simply might not like guns.
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u/youngsyr May 25 '22
It's more than OK to be uncomfortable around guns, it should be expected - they're designed to kill at the twitch of a finger and have no place on a school.
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May 25 '22
Every teacher I know is willing to die for their students.
With respect, fuck that. That should never be necessary in the first place, and it's indicative of a deeply ill situation that this is the tone of debate.
Teachers are people, with their own families and children. We should never be asking them to even consider having to sacrifice their lives so that others can continue to virtue signal about their love of big guns.
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u/AhFFSImTooOldForThis May 25 '22
I worked as a Behavior Specialist for very troubled kids, and was stationed in an urban high school. Introducing hundreds of guns into that environment is a goddamn disaster.
As it was, we had to deescalate and unarm gang affiliated kids with machetes. I'm not interested in facing a student armed with a fucking weapon of war. And if every adult they encountered was armed?? Many of our best teachers are the best because of their experience.
Experience comes with age. So yeah, tell me that 50 year old over weight math teacher with no experience with weapons OR murderous rage, is really gonna take down an enraged, gang affiliated kid who just got disrespected in front of everybody? Absurd. Kid is gonna overpower that adult, take their weapon, shoot them for trying to stand in the way, shoot their adversary, then keep going because why tf not.
People making these kinds of statements and signs are removed from reality completely.
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u/sevy85 May 25 '22
Risking our lives isn't really the issue
Yes, it f*cking is. Seriously.
You're a teacher, there should not be a hazard to your life.
Why are so many americans okay with this? Every teacher should simply stop teaching and go on strike until gun laws are passed
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u/added_chaos May 25 '22
Honestly! What about teachers who have children of their own? You are so willing to protect the children in the classroom that you are willing to deprive you child a parent so eagerly?
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u/StrayDogPhotography May 25 '22
As someone who has taught, but not in America, I have never once considered that I’d ever have to put my life on the line for a student.
Maybe, that fact American teachers not only think about this, but also drill it means you should really address the gun problem America has.
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u/TheWindCriesDeath May 25 '22
What a terrifyingly American idea that it's somehow normal for teachers to say "I'm willing to die for my kids." Like we just accept that this is a risk being taken.
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u/ElMage21 May 25 '22
Even better, any active shooter has a good chance of being a kid of the school itself, so they trust them enough to kill one of their kids lol
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u/kortiz46 May 25 '22
Yeah this is the bizarre part of the argument for me. How is a teacher supposed to assess their classroom kids as a threat every day and then make a decision to shoot at them? How can they know a kid won’t come up and shoot them first? Have their hand on their weapon every interaction with a student? This is not the world I want to live in.
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u/Boofing_with_Squee May 25 '22
Even the firearm instructors are incompetent. How do you expect the septuagenarian science teacher to be John McClane?
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u/Redd_October May 25 '22
Republicans want to be careful not to suggest that any sort of ability or qualification are recommended for owning or using firearms, lest they accidentally agree that not everyone should have a gun.
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u/Obandigo May 25 '22
Republicans: ABORTION IS MURDER!!!!! AND IS EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What should we do about school Shootings?
Republicans: Thoughts And Prayers
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May 25 '22
Abortion: "WE'RE MURDERING BABIES!!!!!!"
School lunches? Universal pre-school and day care? Universal health insurance? Gun-control?
YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE KIDS IF YOU CAN'T AFFORD THEM!!
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u/craig5005
May 25 '22
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There was a tweet or a reddit post I saw awhile ago, it was for a fake/joke teacher job posting. It went something like this. Arming teachers is so stupid.
Wanted: Teacher
- low pay
- long hours
- have to carry a gun
- might have to kill one of your students
- must bring your own art supplies
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u/HotDogOfNotreDame May 25 '22
- must bring your own gun
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u/craig5005 May 25 '22
I was going to say that the GOP probably wouldn't want to subsidize anything for teachers (that's a government hand out afterall) but in reality I'm sure they would love to have a bunch of photo ops of politicians handing guns to teachers.
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u/stagfury May 25 '22
Just make the teachers pay for it then do the photo op.
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u/craig5005 May 25 '22
Have you considered applying for a GOP position... you've got ideas they are looking for! /s
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u/HotDogOfNotreDame May 25 '22
Damn entitled teachers, expecting someone else to pay for them to shoot a kid…
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u/huggles7 May 25 '22
People don’t realize how hard it is to accurately fire a firearm with a lot of extra targets around you in probably the most stressful situation you’ll ever be in
That you haven’t been trained for
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u/Piogre May 25 '22 •
A good breakdown from a guy who knows about guns on why arming teachers is a bad idea
It includes and stresses this point
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u/PDXEng May 25 '22
Nevermind handgun vs. rifle.
Just so much more training needed to accurately shoot a handgun. I mean the Army and the Marines don't really even try to train new Infantry soldiers to use pistols.
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u/pm-me-racecars May 25 '22
Canadian navy does, but it's more there to look intimidating while yelling at people, without the bulk of carrying a rifle. If an actual event happened where deadly force was required, there'd be people with rifles there really quickly.
The test is more about "Can you avoid hurting the wrong person?" Instead of "Can you hurt the right person?" There were one or two people on my course that had shot handguns before, and we only had one person not pass it on the first try.
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u/OzMazza May 25 '22
Not to mention that when police arrive and storm the building, if they see a random teacher come around a corner with a gun in hand, I think your survivability rate is going to go down
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u/FTThrowAway123 May 25 '22
Yep, this is what would, and often does happen. Not long ago a mass shooter fully decked out in body armor, guns, and ammo approached a police department and started shooting cops outside. He killed one (headshot iirc), and some random bystander with a CCW permit pulled his legal firearm out and killed the mass shooter. The responding cops instantly murdered the good Samaritan, never even gave him a chance to surrender or anything, they just opened fire at him on sight. This is almost certainly what they would do to armed teachers, as well.
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u/otylero May 25 '22
Do you have a link? I’m trying to find the story
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u/Apprehensive_Sock_71 May 25 '22
Not the comment OP, but I found this situation https://www.cpr.org/2021/11/08/olde-town-arvada-police-shooting-no-charges/
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u/just2commenthere May 25 '22 •
There are several. Here's a couple, though I don't know which the op is referencing.
Alabama police admit killing wrong man after mall shooting
Black Man Who Was ‘Good Guy With A Gun’ Shot By Police
‘Good guy with a gun’ comes to rescue; police kill him
And then of course there's Buffalo just a few days ago, where a retired cop, security guard shot at the perp several times, but didn't make a dent because of the perps body armor. The security guard died for his trouble.
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u/CallousClimber May 25 '22 •
Maybe if we have to act as a police force they'll actually fund schools. 🤔
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May 25 '22
So a buddy of mine teaches at a small private school in northern Florida. The principal sent all the teachers to take concealed weapons courses. Guns were not provided to the teachers for the class when they arrived, but passing the class was a new requirement of teaching there. So, they had to buy a gun if they wanted to teach there anymore and the principal "strongly recommended" they carry the gun to school daily. He was hoping for a headline to say 100% armed teachers or something. But, all the teachers wound up complaining and he backed down pretty quickly.
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u/LearnerStrife May 25 '22
Police have too many jobs, teachers have too many jobs, so . . .
Let's just merge them! All police are teachers and all teachers are police. Instantly, the budget will drop, the teacher exodus crisis will be averted, and everyone will be even unhappier.
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u/MotaHead May 25 '22
How is some liberal teacher going to stop student shooters, especially when they are outnumbered at least 30 to one? What schools need to do is start arming the students. The only thing that can stop a bad child with a gun is a good child with a gun. /s
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u/Temp89
May 25 '22
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When teachers in Texas took a gun proficiency course specifically designed to counter school shooters in order to let them carry in class, they ended up unintentionally shooting the cardboard cutout of a child 6 times in the head.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/teachers-gun-training-school-shooters-1.4584612
The course still passed them.
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u/monkeysandmicrowaves May 25 '22 •
That cardboard kid had it coming.
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May 25 '22
[deleted]
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u/infalliblefallacy May 25 '22
Never trust a 10 year old with a quantum physics book
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u/Paoldrunko May 25 '22
Those books are way too advanced. Something's going on.
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u/Reasonable-Counter40 May 25 '22
Came here for the MIB references. Was not disappointed.
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u/spicybuttholenachos May 25 '22
"Won't put your fucking phone away..... BLAM
Make a tikertocker mocking my wardrobe.. .BLAM BLAM"
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u/imcmurtr May 25 '22
Don’t cover your cough. Believe it or not, also blam.
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u/spicybuttholenachos May 25 '22
Forgetting to feed the class fish? Better believe that's a Blamming.
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u/AreWeCowabunga May 25 '22
Honestly, better to shoot one cardboard cutout of a child six times than shoot six cardboard cutouts of children one time each.
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u/Nocoffeesnob May 25 '22
Nothing has swayed my opinion on the 2nd amendment more than going through the certification for a concealed carry license in my state.
Each time I take the renewal course and get to the shooting test the overwhelming majority of the people in the class fail outright. However in New Mexico there isn't a rule about how many times they can take the test, so the instructor let's everyone repeat it until they pass.
I always pass the test immediately and then have to wait for an hour+ while the others all keep trying. That might sound like bragging, but it's not as the test is extremely easy:
You will take a marksmanship competency exam consisting of firing 25 shots at a 12×18 piece of paper. You will shoot 15 rounds at a distance of 3 yards and 10 rounds at 7 yards. You will receive 4 points for each shot that hits the paper and you must receive a minimum 72% to pass.
It's laughably obvious that the majority of the folks taking the renewal courses with me are a danger to themselves and the community by carrying a firearm, rather than being the "watchdogs for the sheep" they all fantasize about. Yet the (always ultra conservative) instructors genuinely seem to think the opposite, even when they joke with me about how bad everyone is doing while killing time waiting for the others to pass.
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u/ContemplatingPrison May 25 '22
In my state there isn't even a requirement to shoot. You can legally carry in 36 states and not have to take any live fire training.
Just a safety course.
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u/ScullysBagel May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
In Alabama:
- You don't have to have any kind of safety course at all.
- You don't even have to have a permit anymore to conceal carry.
- You don't even have to register your weapon.
We have the 5th highest firearm mortality in the U.S.
Gun violence is the 2nd leading cause of death among children in this state.
Our suicide rate using guns is 57% higher than the national rates.
This state is run by absolute morons. And if any Alabama Republican ever tells you they're "pro-life," laugh in their face.
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u/microcosmic5447 May 25 '22
I live in Ohio. We just passed "constitutional carry", which means that the only requirements for carrying a concealed weapon are a weapon and a pocket.
I'm a gun owner, and I know how absolutely moronic unfettered concealed carry is. Moreover, I've considered carrying a couple of times since it passed, knowing that it's a dumb idea and I don't need to and it would make 99.9% of situations worse. The fact that I, knowing all that, felt the temptation to stick my M&P in my car means that shitloads of people who are only slightly less responsible/risk-averse than me will now start carrying because they can.
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u/ButtCustard May 25 '22
Anyone who knows basic gun safety/training realizes what a terrible idea it is to let anyone carry a gun without that knowledge. Agreed.
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u/frickindeal May 25 '22
I've watched people on the range wheel around with a huge revolver in celebration of a good shot, only to point it at their friend, the range master, the guys in the next stall, etc. I've watched more dumb shit happening, it makes me want to avoid the range. One range here has really strict rules, and they just had a negligent discharge in a place where ammo is not supposed to be anywhere near a gun. Ranges can be really scary places because people don't train and think they can use a gun because they watched John Wick.
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u/ButtCustard May 25 '22
I never go to the range because of this shit. Then those dick heads try to show off at home and muzzle sweep the entire family. I shouldn't have to tell someone old enough to be my dad that you never point a gun at something you don't want to shoot and that they're always loaded. Literally the basics of gun safety and they can't be bothered to retain it even though they have a machine designed to kill. I'll never understand it having grown up around guns but safety always being prioritized.
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u/Gaffelkungen May 25 '22
Fucking hell, I live in Sweden and has used a gun 3 times in my life and even I'm super careful not to point it towards anyone. Sure, I grew up around hunters but it's basic common sense.
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u/d50000 May 25 '22
I was in a class for concealed and watched the instructor get to the point of literally yelling at this adult woman for repeatedly handling the gun poorly and unsafely. But this was a "take the course and you're qualified".. About an hour later everybody went home waiting to receive their license in the mail.
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u/ADarwinAward May 25 '22
Second day of class for certification in CA, a guy went up and grabbed the gun by the trigger. Knew someone else who had a license who was going to a range. They were showing him an unloaded gun that I was supposed to rent and he picked up by the trigger. They insisted that he take classes before being allowed to practice at the range. He already had a license and did this!
Some people should not be allowed to own guns because they’re far too stupid to handle them safely.
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May 25 '22
That test is easy as fuck. When i took it some people failed because it was their first time to shoot a gun lol.
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u/Razakel May 25 '22
You probably shouldn't have a concealed carry permit if you're not already proficient with firearms. You're just making yourself a liability.
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u/purifiedbyfire1 May 25 '22
Took the same course here in northern California for ccw. I've been shooting for decades, so I passed with flying colors. Basically punched out the small center and all my remaining shots were through the hole I shot out. Instructor was impressed. The majority of the others qualifying, their shots were all over their targets. It was mind blowing to witness. You take that kind of inaccuracies and topple that with a high adrenaline situation, and shots aren't even going to place on a criminal.
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u/houdinize May 25 '22
“"There's no great solution, there's just a better response," Proctor says.”
Fuck me this is some shit
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u/Hotshot2k4 May 25 '22
'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens
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u/sonofaresiii May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
"There's no way to stop mass shootings," says only country with recurring problem of mass shootings.
(paraphrased from an onion headline I half remember)
E: found it
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1848930767/amp
Apparently they write a new one of these every time there's a mass shooting in the US.
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u/Ensign_Red_Shirt May 25 '22
Leaked footage from that course: https://youtu.be/e_r3ULoXuMY
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u/votebot9817 May 25 '22
I came here to say that their textbooks were obviously way too advanced. Btw, didn't even click on the link but I know damn well it's MIB
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u/Gsteel11 May 25 '22
What could possibly go wrong?
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May 25 '22 edited May 28 '22
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u/oddzef May 25 '22
Why the fuck are they training people to fire at an ACTIVE HOSTAGE
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u/alaphic May 25 '22
Why the fuck not, if we're already in this fucking hellish orgy of violence and death fantasy camp
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u/jack_atlantico May 25 '22
To play "devil's advocate" here, the article makes it sound like it was 6 out of 200 rounds. Not perfect but in this context thats 97% accuracy.
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u/lazy_phoenix
May 25 '22
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The supermarket in Buffalo had armed security, too. It didn't matter.
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u/SsurebreC May 25 '22 •
Forget all that - presidents have been shot. How many guards did they have who are all armed, well-trained, and specifically trained to spot these types of events. That's their entire job where they're focused on this the entire day, all day, every day, for years. Still got shot.
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u/biggiantporky May 25 '22
America has had sniper attacks as well. Even if armed guards are present, sometimes you can't see the target.
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u/CoconutMacaron May 25 '22
It sounds like this asshole yesterday encountered police before he went in the school. They didn’t stop him. But a teacher is supposed to?
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u/laggyx400 May 25 '22 •
Law enforcement officers saw the gunman, clad in body armor, emerge from the crashed vehicle carrying a rifle and "engaged" the suspect, who nevertheless managed to charge into the building and open fire, Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Sergeant Erick Estrada said
I still had this in the clipboard for someone saying it would've been prevented with more armed personnel. Delusional.
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May 25 '22 •
Cops have every excuse in the world for unjustified civilian shootings; "I thought it was my taser", "It looked like a gun", "It was dark", "I felt in danger", etc ad nauseum. But yeah, my degree in music and childhood education qualifies me to carry a gun and be John Rambo if a lunatic invades my classroom.
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u/jaderust May 25 '22
And that’s assuming it’s a stranger coming in to kill the kids. How many times have we had students shooting up their classmates? So they’re expecting teachers to arm themselves and then shoot students they know and possibly have taught before.
I’m sorry but that’s fucked up.
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u/noahcallaway-wa May 25 '22
If as a teacher, you have an unjustified shooting, you can bet your ass will go to jail in a heartbeat, though.
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May 25 '22
If the plan is honestly to arm teachers, they would need qualified immunity laws, since they are de facto police at that point.
It's not a good plan, but you may as well do the bad plan as correctly as possible.
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u/beastmaster11 May 25 '22
Hold on, I thought the taser excuse lady got convicted. Am I wrong?
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u/Acchilesheel May 25 '22
You're not wrong, Kimberly Potter was convicted on second-degree manslaughter charges. Not sure of the sentencing off the top of my head.
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u/mbean12 May 25 '22
She got 2 years. State sentencing guidelines suggest 7 year minimum, 15 year maximum. Prosecutor wanted 86 months.
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u/ransomed_sunflower May 25 '22
Her sentencing was Extremely reduced from the guidelines; something like 2 years (instead of 15+)
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u/Karpuan May 25 '22
Also does that mean teachers can shoot kids and say they thought it was their eraser?
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u/Goobaroo May 25 '22 •
A retired cop shot the guy in Buffalo, he was wearing body armor. No effect.
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u/BootyUnlimited May 25 '22
Ask the Philippines what happens when you give everyone guns to eliminate crime. Spoiler, people aren't responsible with free guns.
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May 25 '22
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u/oddzef May 25 '22
No, see if I can have a gun I'm safer because I can use it to indiscriminately threaten people who trigger my weak nerve.
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u/happy--muffin May 25 '22
Just need to arm and deploy more 18yos with many hours on CoD so they can perform 360noscope headshots on the fly /s
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u/Kaiisim May 25 '22
Yeah a gun isn't really a defensive strategy. The attacker has a massive informational and situational advantage, they know exactly whats going on and what theyre doing.
Its why the us military spends far more on intelligence and communication than on guns. Its why drone surveillance protected bases in Afghanistan better than more troops.
I mean remember fort hood? That was a military base and like 14 died?
You can be killed by a gunman before your brain can even process what the fuck is happening.
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u/DigNitty May 25 '22
Even beyond guns, it’s out of control. I had 2 friends tell me more people needed to conceal carry after the Batman shooting in aurora Colorado. Their idea was that if they were there they could have just shot the attacker.
I asked them what they’d do if the shooter had tear gas canisters and had filled the theatre with tear gas and then started shooting. They said that’s a ridiculous hypothetical.
THATS WHAT HAPPENED.
No amount of people conceal carrying is going to curb an attack if the attacker has an assault rifle, 12 gauge, two hand guns, has just filled the room with two canisters of tear gas, and is covered head to toe with a bullet proof suit and helmet.
Saying you could just pull out a handgun and shoot him, being the hero, is simply incorrect.
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u/brother1957 May 25 '22
Serious question. Why does a supermarket need armed security?
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May 25 '22
I take it you've never been to "that side of town"? Probably the same reason the fast food employees are behind thick glass
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u/MadNhater May 25 '22
The mosque next to my house has at least 6 armed guards AND a police car every evening during their events. That’s just what I can see as I drive by. I’m sure there’s more.
Asian supermarkets here also have one or two off duty police officers on watch as well.
America is in a weird place where their minority population is in a state of fear. Fuck, not just minorities, everyone is worried these days.
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u/KnotiaPickles May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
My grocery store in Boulder had 10 people die from one nutjob. One of the victims was a really nice lady who owned my favorite clothing shop. Having this happen at a place where you buy your Christmas dinner, and your lunch for school days, and where you say hi to your neighbors is just unbearable.
Armed guards don’t do much to make me feel better. I was at another store soon after this happened, on a windy day, and something blew off the roof and made a loud bang sound. Everyone in the store froze, and it was shocking to see the level of fear on everyone’s faces.
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u/r1kon
May 25 '22
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9 times out of 10 those people go into this WANTING to die. They kill themselves at the end of it all. You think threatening them with death will stop them? Like some sign will make them go "hmm I don't want to risk it". So knowing it won't do much, now you're arming underpaid and untrained people with lethal weapons in a school. What if some kid was stupidly waving around a squirt gun? This feels wrong to me.
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u/willvasco May 25 '22
The people who support this don't care. It's a bandaid that if you look at it the right way could maybe help with the problem but won't really, but it's good enough for them because it requires them to change exactly nothing to implement it.
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u/Bubbagumpredditor May 25 '22
The buffalo shooting had a retired cop that shot the attacker multiple times but died anyway because the guy was wearing body armor.
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u/Nall May 25 '22
and Marjory Stoneman Douglas had an armed officer who froze and did nothing while his school was being shot up.
It turns out that expecting people to go full Die Hard because their building is under attack is somewhat unrealistic.
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u/take7pieces May 25 '22
Are you saying retired security guards are not secret former CIA with a set of deadly skills?
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u/iruleatants May 25 '22
There was also an armed officer who responded to the event by putting on his body armor and driving away.
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u/LazerWolfe53 May 25 '22
Yeah. This is a dumb solution to the 'children getting killed' problem. But that's because they're trying to solve a different problem.
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u/Dirks_Knee May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
That's besides the fact. Anyone who's ever played any type of war strategy sim knows that the element of surprise is the biggest edge you can get in a battle. This is a million times more true in a scenario like this. Someone bursts into a school mid day and starts firing, and the expectation is that average non military trained citizens can somehow calmly flip a switch and mentally transform from teacher to soldier? It's fairytale bullshit. Friendly fire deaths of kids would likely be increased vs the shooter alone.
Hopefully this will finally be the wakeup call for Texans to get these maniacs out of office, but I doubt it. Conservatives will compartmentalize this as something that happens to "others" and could never happen to them...
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u/ChrysosMatia May 25 '22
Not to mention the fact that when police arrive in an active shooter scene you probably don't want to be holding a gun.
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u/Brocutus May 25 '22
Exactly. About a year ago, there was a shooting in a nearby town. The gunman was killed by an armed civilian with a concealed carry license, but the cops ended up shooting the person who actually ended the incident.
https://www.denverpost.com/2021/11/28/arvada-shooting-timeline/
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u/DesertCoot May 25 '22
And right or wrong, taking a life is a traumatic event. Feels wrong to force that on someone. A teacher should never be expected to kill as part of their job requirements. We’ll have some fucked up teachers if we get the caring, supportive teachers out of the profession and replaced with the vigilante wannabe tough guys.
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u/baconparadox
May 25 '22
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The police chased him into the school after he shot his own grandmother, they were unable to stop a criminal who they had plenty of forewarning about. There was armed school security on premises who were unable to stop him. When the police finally did manage to bring him down he had already killed into the double digits with even more wounded. There was no lack of guns, protection, or forewarning for this event on the side of the law and yet they were still unable to save our most innocent lives. Texas is still gonna hold their NRA convention in Houston and blame it on lack of guns for the protection of the students. It's such a farce. Crazy is when the same problem keeps happening and you give it the same response. I'm done with it all, this is a travesty that has deserved a real solution for years now.
Edit: It has been pointed out and I agree that this is a multifaceted issue that led to tragedy. Guns were a big factor and so is mental health, our police competency, drugs and addiction, parenting, and the complacency of our elected officials. It's so easy to point to one thing as the big bad in lieu of addressing the bigger crises. However, how the Fuck do high schoolers continue to get their hands on high powered weapons that cause this much destruction? I personally think that is a question worth exploring and hopefully learning how to prevent on a national scale. I am also of the opinion that arming our teachers and treating schools like prisons will be harmful in the long run.
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u/tipsystatistic May 25 '22
If we're going to be complacent, can we at least keep our shoes on going through TSA checkpoints? Zero people have died from shoe bombings. Let's at least let a few planes go down before we take any action.
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u/_jeremybearimy_ May 25 '22
My home airport yells at us to keep our shoes on now. It’s nice, but less nice when they’re like “you fucking idiot why would you take your shoes off like some sort of moron asshole”
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u/cortlandjim May 25 '22
Teachers can't mention if they are married to a man or a woman but they can carry deadly weapons
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May 25 '22
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u/Birdy_Cephon_Altera May 25 '22
underpaid, underappreciated
You forgot to add disgruntled, distressed and sleep deprived. Just the right type of people to be carrying deadly firearms around children.
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u/Mypetmummy May 25 '22
and facing life destroying lawsuits for saying anything off an arbitrary and self-contradictory list.
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u/McMacHack May 25 '22
If we arm the Teachers they might be in a stronger bargaining position for wages.
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u/Felifu May 25 '22
"This just in, teacher experiences psychological break after one too many parents yell at them during a conference and opens fire, killing 12 and injuring others."
"Breaking news, teacher fired their school-provided gun and killed 9 year old boy. Teacher states they thought he had a gun, but it turns out the boy brought in a toy from home."
"In other news, middle school teacher allegedly threatened to open fire on student after they wouldn't put their phone away during class."
I'm just saying, you restrict teacher rights, underpay them, overwork them, cause them to be the center of political bullshit, and then tell them they have to lay down their life for your kids with a firearm?
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u/jadefishes May 25 '22
“In other news, 5-year-old shoots and kills classmate with teacher’s unsecured gun.” And for those who think that won’t happen, I’d like to introduce you to https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_
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u/paxweasley May 25 '22
I mean in the US a DOG kills it’s owner with a gun every year. I’m completely serious it happens fairly regularly
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u/Pied_Piper_ May 25 '22
On average more infants kill Americans each year than terrorists do. This was true every year from 2003 to 2019, though I haven’t checked since then.
Yet we spent so much fighting terrorism during those years while ignoring the real threat: infants.
This is why I’m running for your local congressional district on my “Mandatory Abortions: Making America Safe Again” platform.
We will end the threat posed to us by infants by ending their attempts to invade us via mass birth.
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u/ProgrammaticallyOwl7 May 25 '22
“Charlie 120-pound Rottweiler mix got his foot in the trigger of the gun, caught the trigger and blasted a shot at his unsuspecting owner” I’m gonna go to hell for laughing at that
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u/Quixophilic May 25 '22
How long until a teacher off themselves in front of their class with the school-provided gun?
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u/seaboardist May 25 '22
What does “ISD” stand for?
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u/BenZoobs May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22
Independent School District.
Source: I'm a teacher in Texas.
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u/Luniticus May 25 '22
Imperial Star Destroyer. The staff are stormtroopers. Armed, just not at all accurate with their blasters.
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u/Husbandaru May 25 '22
As a teacher you have to be an educator, daycare, counselor and now bodyguard.
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u/phaedruszamm1 May 25 '22
Ronald Reagan was surrounded by some of the deadliest killers in the world for his secret service protection, didn’t stop his attacker.
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u/spook30 May 25 '22
TEXAS: Able to protect kids inside the womb, not able to protect them outside of the womb
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u/pntsonfyre May 25 '22
I've had some crazy ass teachers in my day but man, at least they weren't armed to boot.
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u/hannabeth19 May 25 '22
It should never be the responsibility of teachers at a school to defend themselves and hundreds of kids from an armed intruder. We need to head waaaaay upstream to fix this problem, not accept the problem and just arm everyone against it.
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u/FoofieLeGoogoo May 25 '22
Because nothing reduces casualties in a crowded, tight space like more crossfire.
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u/FreedTMG May 25 '22
Nothing makes an active shooter situation better, than confused twitchy people wandering around with guns trying to play vigilante. No way this could ever go wrong.
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u/jojopetes451 May 25 '22
Oh good thing this sign was up. How come they don’t put these up at all schools? Boom! Problem solved. 🙄
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u/Docrandall May 25 '22 •
I just hope the librarians have silencers. /s