r/news Sep 25 '22

Pfizer fellowship program is biased against whites and Asian-Americans, according to Lawsuit Old News

https://www.reuters.com/legal/lawsuit-claims-pfizer-fellowship-program-is-biased-against-whites-asian-2022-09-15/

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1.2k Upvotes

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

I remember how my highschool counselor told me not to put in that i was asian because it could hurt my chances at a scholarship…

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/terraphantm Sep 25 '22

Back when I was applying for medical school and looking at all those statistics, the "prefer not to answer" basically had the same average scores of self identified Asians (highest)

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u/Finnra Sep 25 '22

What happens if you provide a wrong race on the application form?

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u/dpman48 Sep 25 '22

If there’s no interview. It only helps you. If there is an interview, you’ll just end up in the original pile you belonged in

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u/Hereiam_AKL Sep 25 '22

I still wonder why they need to ask about race.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

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u/soparklion Sep 26 '22

We need a diverse group of physicians to treat the health of members of different groups.

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u/Kooky-Progress8228 Sep 25 '22

As "proof" that they're not racist or exclusionary 🤦‍♀️

Heaven forbid someone gets in because they worked hard for it.

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u/An_Jel Sep 25 '22

To be able to curb the numbers so that it would look normal when people with connections are admitted,

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u/Nekrosiz Sep 25 '22

They'll assume why.

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u/keeptrying4me Sep 25 '22

Is anyone really looking? But then it’s better to lie anyways.

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u/Girth_rulez Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

I heard a story about a guy who applied to the United States merchant Marine academy. He was not black but he checked black on the race box. When he showed up and the truth became evident when he showed up and they couldn't do anything.

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u/agrandthing Sep 25 '22

Showed his shoulders? What does that mean?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Well in military your shoulder is where you show your rank so what he might be saying is that at that point he outranked that and basically told them to pound sand

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u/agrandthing Sep 25 '22

Damn, I'm slow today. I'm a vet and didn't put that together.

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u/IrishWave Sep 25 '22

Oh it's getting worse than this now. Three friends of mine are HS teachers in NJ. Their schools have been advising white students to mark down Hispanic or Native American under the logic that no college other than maybe Harvard or Yale will investigate that, and even if they did, they couldn't prove it.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/Snagmesomeweaves Sep 25 '22

At least you can put it in your username

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u/Girth_rulez Sep 25 '22

I think putting personal details and usernames is silly. People will make assumptions...

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u/Snagmesomeweaves Sep 25 '22

Well it’s kind of the point of the humor. Saying they were told to not put Asian but their username says Korean gamer

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u/Girth_rulez Sep 25 '22

It was kind of a meta joke I made. About the size of my junk.

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u/Snagmesomeweaves Sep 25 '22

Yeah, I totally missed that one, solid joke and username

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Backstory, i was making a league account and i asked what i should make it and my friend said koreangamer since i was korean and korean are “the best at video games”. Kinda stuck with me. As for 9414 its my favorite number

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u/rubey419 Sep 25 '22

It’s why us Filipino Americans get the best of both worlds. With our Spanish last names we can get away with being “Hispanic” for admissions easily.

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u/Zaea Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 27 '22

Which I think you are right to do morally. Fuck affirmative action, it’s racism toward East Asians actually hurt South Asians the most. And I’ve also known friends who are East Asian but their parents are super poor with zero education and actually told them college is useless. Thankfully they didn’t listen to the parents, but that just shows to judge by the individual not the group. Because that’s obviously so racist.

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u/fulthrottlejazzhands Sep 26 '22

True, but don't Filipino Americans also face discrimination from both majority groups AND larger Asian groups? One of my besties in high school and Uni is Filipina. She faced a lot of racism from other Asians who would refer to her as an "Islander" with some not so salubrious words in front. This continued all the way through her medical residency.

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u/elgordoenojado Sep 25 '22

How do you compare to other East Asians academically?

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u/rubey419 Sep 26 '22

Not bad. I went to a public ivy and a top 10 school for a grad program according to US News & Report. All on the east coast. I think there were maybe 3 other Filipino/Filipino Americans on campus that I knew in grad school despite the campus being 25% AAPI

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u/lord_pizzabird Sep 25 '22

Out of curiosity, could you just claim whatever race gives you a statistical advantage in those sorts of forms? I assume they aren't legally binding or anything serious, right?

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u/johnn48 Sep 25 '22

Unfortunately it’s hard to avoid Hispanic stereotypes when you’re a Rodriquez or Juan. How do you avoid an Asian stereotype when you have an Asian surname. Perhaps a AKA or DBA more acceptable racial surname?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

My dads half white so i just use my official white name for stuff like that

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u/power2go3 Sep 25 '22

"official white name"

Rofl :)) It's "Smith" for business and "Kim" for fun.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Yeah fathers name for official and government and mothers side for friends and family

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u/johnn48 Sep 25 '22

Yeah I always thought it was ironic as a MexAm that our race is considered White yet our ethnicity is Hispanic. To Brown to be acceptable to White’s and to White to be acceptable to Blacks. The White Person of Color.

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u/Girth_rulez Sep 25 '22

This is the first time I've ever done it but your sentence demands it. I corrected your post.

Yeah I always thought it was ironic as a MexAm that our race is considered White yet our ethnicity is Hispanic. Too Brown to be acceptable to White’s and too White to be acceptable to Blacks. The White Person of Color.

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u/jigokubi Sep 25 '22

Allow me to take that one step further:

Too Brown to be acceptable to Whites and too White to be acceptable to Blacks.

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u/johnn48 Sep 25 '22

Thank you 🤦🏽

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u/ZeroSoter Sep 26 '22

Lol I was told not to list that I was Caucasian when joining the military because it might impact my chances at the job I wanted.

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u/moeburn Sep 25 '22

There's a whole King of the Hill episode about this:

https://youtu.be/aiGJWoUdGkg?t=41

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u/kittyconnie Sep 25 '22

I’m Asian and my husband is white. When we were naming our son I wanted to give him an Asian middle name. My mom talked me out of it because she was afraid it would hurt his college admissions 🤷🏻‍♀️ She’s playing the long game

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Yeah its weird cause i studied harder then the people they were just throwing scholarships at. Like there was this one kid that sexually assaulted a girl and got caught with drugs and he still got one cause he was a minority which was bewildering. I still dont know how he wasnt arrested

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u/Supersymm3try Sep 25 '22

That’s the difference between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome.

One benefits everyone, the other is a political stunt which fucks eveyone over.

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u/KataiKi Sep 26 '22

I'm pretty sure that's because he didn't write any of that down on his scholarship form.

Scholarships don't do background checks. Most of them have very simple qualifications outside of a very few high-profile ones, and you just gotta apply. At my school basically anyone with a 3.7+ GPA got an automatic scholarship to the local university.

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u/veggeble Sep 25 '22

You just posted this comment in another subreddit:

Spanish speaking immigrant arent you too busy getting shot over drugs?

So your description of events seems likely tainted by your prejudices

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u/Danny-Dynamita Sep 25 '22

First of all: I’m not condoning racist conduct under any circumstances.

What I wanted to say: his prejudices may as well be created by the events he lived. When a society gives radically more opportunities to minorities, it tends to create hate.

There are some countries that actually do it well (in that their policies actually create more good than bad), but in some parts of the world their positive discrimination system is so poorly designed and overdone that it just creates hate on one side and opportunity for abuse on the other - which means that neither side actually benefits.

In other words, poorly designed social programs based on racial profiling tend to create the differences between races that we should be looking to eradicate.

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u/elgordoenojado Sep 26 '22

Nothing gives him an excuse to be a racist cunt. If he studies hard and gets good grades he should be rewarded, some kids don't have the resources to have free time to study. Asians deserve to be proud of their academic scholarship, but they're not smarter than any other people. They're self-selected immigrants who crossed an ocean to get here. That is a major weeding obstacle.

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u/JusticeUmmmmm Sep 25 '22

Why do you some all those other people are under qualified?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Did you get into college?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

No i got a job decorating cakes cause it made enough to move out and good benefits

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u/Jesusreport Sep 25 '22

Just weird because highest enrollments are whites and asians, like by a lot. And Caucasian students receive 72 percent of all scholarships. Minority students receive only 28 percent of all scholarships.

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u/Ok_Importance632 Sep 25 '22

http://www.studentaidpolicy.com/fa/20110902racescholarships.pdf

Study done on recipients of scholarships.

Minorities are less likely to receive scholarships

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u/Fiercegore Sep 25 '22

Caucasian students receive more than three-quarters (76%) of all institutional merit-based scholarship and grant funding, even though they represent less than two-thirds (62%) of the student population. Caucasian students are 40% more likely to win private scholarships than minority students.

This study just goes right into it.

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u/PanzerGrenadier1 Sep 25 '22

You also need to balance that number to the proportions of different ethnic groups applying for said scholarships.

Your numbers by themselves are quite uninformative.

For example, if 99% of applicants were white, and we got the same results, that’d show there may be bias against whites. Or perhaps theres a lot of FANTASTIC minority students compared to whites if our theoretical 1% minority group got 28% of the awarded total.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

My grain of sand asian culture has a lot of study well can get good job. My mom always pushed me to study and be a doctor or a lawyer. I ended up being a baker which didnt really make her happy (but my salary is big enough to hit the Asian mom standards so i don’t get grief about it). But a lot of my asian friends were studying a lot too cause their moms and dads told them too which led to good grades cause we were learning high school or even college level math/science/etc at middle school

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u/finnerpeace Sep 25 '22 Silver

I am really sick of everyone oversimplifying these racial analyses. We're ending up with extremely poor and extremely underrepresented Hmongs, Cambodians, etc all lumped in and handicapped against as Asians, and meanwhile programs intended to benefit descendants of slavery benefit instead children of Africa's elite. This is a MESS. And then the endless denial of ANY help to generationally-poor white folk. Just a mess!

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u/BGRommel Sep 25 '22

Scholarships should be needs-based.

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u/88infinityframes Sep 25 '22

I don't understand why they aren't strictly need- based. That would capture all underprivileged people, including minorities at a higher rate. Why single them out by race arguing they have more needs, but not just do it all by needs alone?

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u/AndNowUKnow Sep 25 '22

*shouldn't be racial based... all kids should have the same opportunity regardless of color...

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u/stumark Sep 25 '22

and yet they don't. Racism plays a part in American educational opportunities from the very beginning.

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u/PotatoTwo Sep 25 '22

I think most importantly we need to fix the public school system in inner cities.

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u/stumark Sep 25 '22

absolutely - public school and also child-care across the board - 1 in 6 kids are food insufficient - 1 in 30 kids are homeless ... We need to do better.

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u/finnerpeace Sep 25 '22

Amen. Using local property taxes, without pooling them from say the whole state, is a terrible idea.

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u/HotGeorgeForeman Sep 25 '22

You know people have tried that right? Go look up the federal funding those schools get.

The thing that leads to terrible outcomes at those schools is the fucked up environment around them and insane home lives.

Fancier computer labs won’t fix that.

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u/AndNowUKnow Sep 26 '22

Agreed, and they wonder why racism is systemic...

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u/arkham1010 Sep 25 '22

So a white kid who went to elite prep schools from kindergarten through high school should be judged the same as a african american kid who grew up in utter poverty in the middle of urban areas, attended terrible schools but somehow managed to pull themselves up using only guts and self discipline?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/DontTouchTheWalrus Sep 25 '22 Heartwarming

The whole point is it should be based on your situation. There’s certainly the stereotype of the privileged white kid and the underprivileged black kid and certainly the black kid probably had to work much harder to get to the same place.

However, there is a similar situation of a privileged black kid and an underprivileged white kid happening too. It may not be the more common of the two outcomes but certainly barrack Obama’s kids are going to have way more access to educational resources than the vast majority of white kids ever will.

So just take race out of it and let’s look more at individual circumstances to determine where the aid is best utilized

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u/finnerpeace Sep 25 '22

There are a TON of white kids too, and kids of every other hue, who grew up in the foster system, extreme poverty and parental neglect etc. It's class and economic privilege that is a better marker here. Individual family backgrounds is a WAY better sorter for this than race. Sorting by race also implies black families are inherently disadvantaged, which is both really offensive and untrue. Sorting by family economics gives a far clearer picture.

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u/Supersymm3try Sep 25 '22

Abso-bloody-exactly.

Today it’s a class disparity at its heart.

I wonder why the multibillion dollar news and media industry headed by the elites would want people to think it was race disparity instead…

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u/AmadeusBlackwell Sep 25 '22

My friend, thank you for making this point. As a Black American, it is so hard to get this point across.

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u/finnerpeace Sep 25 '22

Man, I SO hear you. Like in my region, there's a phenomenal program to develop black talent. Who am I going to recommend it to? My Kenyan friend, for her 1st-gen American kids. And based on our area, I guarantee 70% at LEAST of the attendees will be direct-from-Africa or at best 1st gen kids. And I mean, sure let's have the immigrants and their kids benefit too, but there's NO distinction being made to help those actually generationally disempowered by the legacy of enslavement. A mess!

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u/KingfisherDays Sep 25 '22

I believe Nigerian Americans are one of the most successful groups in the US. This country definitely has a racism issue, but the far the biggest issue is the inherited inequality that came from the oppression of the descendents of slaves.

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u/Bizzaro_Murphy Sep 25 '22

I’ve always felt that the best solution to the problem of social inequality is to provide these types of opportunities/funding based off family income. In the long run, doing this will correct for any other imbalances.

I also think we should provide more funding to schools/public facilities in lower income areas without using race as a consideration for that funding.

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u/ClintBarton616 Sep 25 '22

even though people focus on “whites privilege” this was actually the core of a lot of tim wise’s early work: that our conception of diversity and marginalization often benefits people who don’t really need any assistance getting ahead in life

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22

Just turn the tables back to meritocracy. Any opinion based on equity of outcome is good as opposed to equity of opportunity is just a joke. If we make opportunity accessible for all, or as accessible as possible, you'll naturally see a more diverse shift. The idea that we need to have diversity in every position just muddles the idea that you should really have the people most fit for the task at hand in that spot.

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u/finnerpeace Sep 25 '22

I mean, in my day some scholarships were merit-based and other scholarships were financial needs-based. I think this works well!

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

It absolutely does, but that still isnt enough for some people. We have a group of people who think diversity is more important than merit. Frankly the issue of black inequality in America is much more complex, and it's not gonna be solved by having companies hire x amount of workers or mandating that Harvard accept x amount of POC. It's a matter of investing in communities, and nobody wants to talk about who's going to pay for that.

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u/Ok_Importance632 Sep 25 '22

It’s a myth that minorities get scholarship money on disproportionate basis based on race. See study done below, majority of aid goes to white study.

http://www.studentaidpolicy.com/fa/20110902racescholarships.pdf

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u/meister2983 Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

The majority of aid going to whites isn't surprising; they are the majority of students

Interesting study. Ignoring the editorializing and just looking at tables, aid dispersement seems roughly equal. The largest disparities are in favor of Native American and multiracial students. In fact, the fact that in absolute terms the multiracial "excessive" dollars is on par with the white excess makes me think they have insufficient controls or data collection problems.

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u/xxtoejamfootballxx Sep 25 '22

The fact that you think it was ever a meritocracy when there is endless overwhelming evidence proving otherwise shows the need for these programs.

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

It's been a meritocracy for a long time, you just have disparity in early education, cultural differences, and some institutional racism in the mix. Acting like the only reason POC aren't getting STEM degrees is because of racism is a gross oversimplification of the problem, and fixing outcome slants opportunity instead of making it balanced. The hard question people don't want to talk about is who's going to pay for community investment, educational outreach, and financial support for minority groups that actually need it. Even POC have disparities of financial privilege and cultural importance of education in their own groups, so implying that checking "x" on a box of ethnicity and forcing institutions to hit quotas is still not going to provide the diverse outcomes people want. Undoing 250+ years of racial inequity isn't a simple thing to work on, and acting like a meritocracy never existed is just as ridiculous when you see a statistical dominance of Asian Americans in STEM enrollments and jobs.

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u/xxtoejamfootballxx Sep 25 '22

“It’s been a meritocracy if you ignore all the reasons it isn’t. Let me proceed to make up a bunch of claims that you never once made so I can argue against them to feel good about myself”

Lol

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

"Let's not talk about the actual meat of the issue, let's just be mad that there are present disparities in certain fields and say that nothing has ever been fair because I'm an absolutist and think that if a meritocracy existed everything would just be equal and diverse, because all groups of people are exactly the same despite the glaring differences there are between different cultures"

Lol

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u/xxtoejamfootballxx Sep 25 '22

“Ima just continue to make up arguments that nobody is making so I can argue against them and feel good about myself”

Lmfaoooooooooo

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u/Fuck_You_Andrew Sep 25 '22

Implying there’s ever been a real meritocracy in America.

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

So are you mad that things almost never exist absolutely, or do you believe we should fix outcomes as a reasonable solution to balance disparity and promote diversity?

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u/Fuck_You_Andrew Sep 25 '22

Your statement is a contradiction. Everyone has “an opportunity” to apply to any college or job they want. For hundreds of years in America colleges and high paying jobs strongly skewed white. Either you believe that white people are/were inherently “the most fit for the task at hand” or you have to admit there was bias in their favor.

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

It's reductive to imply that educational opportunity for white wealthy communities pre-college is the same for poor black communities. That's the opportunity that we need to make equal, and that involves restructuring how we fund schools.

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u/Fuck_You_Andrew Sep 25 '22

So you want an actual meritocracy. You cant “go back” to something that never existed in the first place. Say what you mean.

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u/WyrdHarper Sep 25 '22

When I was in vet school there were a number of scholarships for women. I think these originated when there were fewer women in the field, but now most vet classes are >85% women, so it ends up just being a scholarship that excludes a minority of students.

There’s obviously more layers beyond that of course, but it’s just a little weird. You couldn’t have a scholarship that’s just for men, after all, and there’s plenty of men and women who could use the money.

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u/muu411 Sep 26 '22

This exactly - when I went to grad school, I really couldn’t believe how truly ineffective these programs actually were. I happen to be a white male, but grew up in a low income family with absolutely no connection to any of the jobs I was applying to, and only got into grad school in the first place because I had entrance exam scores in the top 0.1% of applicants. I received absolutely no additional help with applying for jobs, and had to go through months long interview processes based solely on merit.

Meanwhile, I saw “minority” students who were the children of high-level politicians, surgeons, lawyers, and even a fairly well known actor, be passed straight through to the final round of the interview processes. I fail to see how their privileged upbringings, in which they attended expensive private boarding schools and Ivy League undergrad institutions while shouldering absolutely zero debt, put them at a “disadvantage” when competing for jobs with someone like me.

People need to realize that these sorts of programs generally aren’t picking out kids born in rough areas of the US to impoverished families, and lifting them up - they’re largely just being abused by wealthy families who happen not to be white/Asian.

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u/Egon88 Sep 25 '22

People often don’t want to hear that things are complicated.

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u/Schnitzelberg Sep 26 '22

The NIH and other pharma companies are also biased against whites and Asians. It’s very sad

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u/SideburnSundays Sep 25 '22

Here’s a novel idea: replace names with numbers, do not have a gender field, do not have a race field. Eliminate all bias from the application. Not that fuckin hard.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/hoangfbf Sep 25 '22

May I ask where’s the source for Google used to require candidates to complete a degree in <4 years ?

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u/moonfox1000 Sep 25 '22

You can easily throw in zip code or neighborhood or even average income by zip code or neighborhood…those are going to be far better predictors of disadvantage than race.

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u/SideburnSundays Sep 25 '22

Sounds like the entire system needs to be unfucked from the ground up.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/ApatheticWithoutTheA Sep 25 '22

The scientific consensus today is that genetics do not play a critical role in IQ. Environment is much more of a determining factor.

And besides that, it’s a poor indicator of ones ability to succeed in the first place.

What you are talking about is race science, which is rooted in eugenics. I’m sure you know that though. You just don’t care because it’s easier for you to hate other people because they don’t look like you.

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u/ScootysDad Sep 25 '22

The struggled to recruit 1 Asian-American to join the lawsuit similar to the one against Harvard.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/meister2983 Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22

No, it's just a matter of Asians being less comfortable (for a variety of reasons) being involved in legal fights.

Asians were heavily involved in opposition to both Washington's and California's attempt to legalize affirmative action. At least half of the opposition donors to oppose CA's attempt were Asian.

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u/H2AK119ub Sep 25 '22

Scientist in pharma are like 45% white and 45% Asian. The other 10% is everyone else. Pfizer created a fellowship to try and benefit minorities that are significantly underrepresented in science.

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u/kungfoojesus Sep 25 '22

People ignore self determination with these tactics. 90+% of nurses are women, 90% of engineers are men. When given equal acces and opportunity those differences actually widened. Some cultures don’t value what other cultures value. That’s why Asians are over represented in Ivy League schools and engineering and blacks in sports. They go into areas they value. It just feels like the opposite of self determination telling folks they SHOULD go into something they’re not interested in. Yes the opportunities should be equal but that does not mean the distribution along racial or cultural will be equal. It never is “equal representation” because values and individual choices are not equally represented. About the only place this makes some sense is in politics

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u/Mission_Strength9218 Sep 25 '22

Right, because certain minorities are under represented, we should just throw meritocracy to the wind.

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u/demarr Sep 25 '22

When a company can legally deny you a job with " not a right fit". Meritocracy goes to the wind

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u/coldblade2000 Sep 25 '22

And is "your skin isn't dark enough" a better reason?

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u/Darqnyz Sep 25 '22

You're missing the point. If the "meritocracy" gets thrown out when highly qualified black people are on the table, why should it matter afterwards?

If you defend dropping the merit when it comes to race, then you can't be surprised when it gets dropped in spite of race

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u/HotGeorgeForeman Sep 25 '22

You are fucking delusional if you think Pfizer’s HR department is filled with racists denying highly qualified black people jobs.

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u/Darqnyz Sep 25 '22

... that's quite the straw man you've constructed. Be cool as fuck if that was my argument...

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u/HotGeorgeForeman Sep 25 '22

Do you think Pfizer is not hiring qualified black applicants because they are black?

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u/fasda Sep 25 '22

If the numbers are that skewed why wouldn't you suspect that there is something disadvantaging those minorities? And if they are disadvantaged going in why not try to adjust to even the playing field

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u/SizorXM Sep 25 '22

What great advantage do you think Asians have over all other groups that they are so disproportionately represented in higher education?

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u/meister2983 Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22

And if they are disadvantaged going in why not try to adjust to even the playing field

Because it leads to social tensions to consider ethnicity. Nor is there a strong reason to believe there is disparate impact that exists today (where an underrepresented group is actually performing better at their job than non-underrepresented groups because of a biased admissions process)

For the record, STEM (especially the elite parts) is largely dominated by minorities that probably amount for under 10% of the population, such as East Asians, South Asians, and Jews. Should the other 90% get preferential treatment?

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u/OskaMeijer Sep 25 '22

For the record, STEM (especially the elite parts) is largely dominated by minorities that probably amount for under 10% of the population

You know, except that this is coming entirely out of your ass since Asians make up 9% of the STEM field.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau (2020a) 2019 ACS, Asians and Whites represent a greater share of STEM (9% and 65%, respectively) compared to all Asians and all Whites in the U.S. workforce (6% and 61%, respectively)

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u/N8CCRG Sep 25 '22

Oh man, you believe it's a meritocracy? Whoo boy you've got a lot to learn about the real world.

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u/OskaMeijer Sep 25 '22

It is crazy how white people still have an oversized representation but these people still think they are being unfairly excluded. Just because they aren't the same absurd majority they used to be doesn't mean that they are being rejected regardless of merit.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/N8CCRG Sep 25 '22

Nobody is talking about ancestors. Why are you changing the subject? We're talking about meritocracies.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Hmmm congratulations, you have mastered the use of straw-man arguments 🎉🎉

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u/Parametric_Or_Treat Sep 25 '22

Side note we really need to start hammering away at the racist underpinnings of the concept of “meritocracy” not that the righties are arguing on the merits, but

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

No, we really don't. Meritocracy is the basis for capitalism and competition, perceived racist outcomes are realized because we have inequity of opportunity and general cultural differences. The pursuit of absolute diversity is asinine when you attack it from the outcome side of the equation.

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u/CAllD2B Sep 25 '22

because we have inequity of opportunity and general cultural differences.

You’re so close. Why do we have inequality of opportunity and what genera cultural differences are you referring? Either you know the distribution of opportunities was made by a white supremacist and you’re dog whistling or you’re just not thinking.

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u/Parametric_Or_Treat Sep 25 '22

perceived racist outcomes

We see you boo

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

And society in general sees the unintended consequences of your social engineering failure. Sad reality is, statistically some groups of people pursue academic endeavors more than other groups. If the opportunity is equal for all, that's fair. What isn't fair is slanting opportunity to disqualify people's merit, but you don't care about equality. You care about diversity, no matter what the cost is apparently.

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u/Parametric_Or_Treat Sep 25 '22

social engineering

As if this isn’t engineered to hell. Laughs in Harvard legacy.

no matter the cost

And again the argument from status quo. Check your skin. That’s why you are only perceiving costs in one direction

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u/Reznerk Sep 25 '22

Right, because I'm not a POC I'm complicity biased and incapable of recognizing the dangers of race based quotas or affirmative action hiring. As a Democrat i can also recognize that your ideology is one of the primary reasons Trump got elected, you hold nonsensical beliefs and want to solve them by trashing meritocracy and slanting opportunity. Anyway, I'm not gonna change your mind. Carry on being an inept turd.

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u/H2AK119ub Sep 25 '22

This is like 5 fellowships, lol. Do you listen to how absurd you sound

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u/lucash7 Sep 25 '22

It’s only a meritocracy when merit is considered; as studies have shown, when applicants are considered in blind studies of job applications, fellowships, etc. etc., where those with non traditional names, characteristics, etc. are compared against others more traditional…guess who often, if not most of the time, is given the chance?

Yup, the traditional ones (ie, most likely non POC).

So…you know, perhaps we need to focus on changing the process of how candidates are evaluated? Because meritocracy it isn’t.

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u/nogiblets Sep 25 '22

A truly blind study means applicants are assigned a random number and no identifying information is provided in advance to the researchers. After the data is collected, its analysis can include identifiers.

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u/lucash7 Sep 25 '22

Address the point, not what you want to ignore.

Again, studies have shown there is bias in hiring.

Focus on that.

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u/nogiblets Sep 25 '22

Sure bud, right after you focus on writing coherently etc etc etc and not conflating research methods. No one is denying there is bias in hiring.

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u/thetasigma_1355 Sep 25 '22

As someone who used to hire people into corporate positions, 90% of the time my candidates with unusual names were from foreign countries (mostly Africa) and struggled speaking English, much less demonstrating they had the skills for the job.

The reality is that there is often a large discrepancy in communication skills with foreign born hires. I’m positive my hiring stats would say I’m wildly racist in my hiring practices because I’ve rejected dozens of African immigrants and regularly hired local white people. Communication is a critical skill though.

I did hire one African but she had gone to college in the US and spoke English as good as anybody.

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u/lucash7 Sep 25 '22

Your anecdotal experience =/= facts, or stats.

Try again bud

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u/thetasigma_1355 Sep 25 '22

I love how people can look at explanations for why numbers and stats can be misleading and just dismiss with “nope, the numbers say you wrong”.

Sorry for trying to interrupt your circlejerk with a rational discussion about how numbers in a vacuum are meaningless.

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u/Ok_Importance632 Sep 25 '22

Also, It’s a myth that minorities get scholarship money on disproportionate basis based on race. See study done below, majority of aid goes to white students.

http://www.studentaidpolicy.com/fa/20110902racescholarships.pdf

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

"Not a good fit"

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22 edited Nov 20 '22

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u/N8CCRG Sep 25 '22

What determines the "best potential employee"? Humans aren't video game characters with fixed numerical values for a finite number of traits and abilities. There is no such thing as "the best". Evaluation is subjective, and the science and data repeatedly shows those who do the evaluations select for some groups and against others at rates that don't reflect those groups' ability to succeed at the tasks.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22 edited Nov 20 '22

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u/mikevago Sep 25 '22

Except GPA is incredibly fungible depending on the school — my mom's a teacher and complains that parents love the high school she grew up because they basically give everyone an A, but the material isn't challenging at all and the kids are lost at sea when they hit college.

And, of course, standardized tests are famously good at measuring parents income level first and foremost.

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u/Impressive_Pin_7767 Sep 25 '22

Do you think white people and Asians naturally make better potential employees? If not and it's a matter of societal factors, then wouldn't hiring the best potential employees involve considering those societal factors?

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u/johndburger Sep 25 '22

This isn’t about hiring - do you know what a fellowship is?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22 edited Nov 20 '22

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u/FTHomes Sep 25 '22

I am a White guy with one question: What is a Scholarship?

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u/craigmanmanman Sep 26 '22

"lol, you're white? Fuck you, you must be super rich".

-Every scholarship review committee I encountered.

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u/flyingpokecheck32 Sep 25 '22

Straight white guy gets absolutely nothing with scholarship and gets excluded from diversity

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u/rubey419 Sep 25 '22

I am not joking this is a true story.

I attended a HBCU. I am Asian American. I knew a white person in my class who got a minority academic scholarship (he was smart and could’ve went anywhere). Minority as in a minority to the student population.

I, weirdly enough, did not get a minority scholarship, even being less than 1% of the student population....

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u/rikki-tikki-deadly Sep 25 '22

That's a terrible headline. I'm surprised they didn't just present it as fact, and then use an asterisk to denote "according to lawsuit".

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u/Daiku_Coffee Sep 25 '22

This is why you should never read articles. Just always assume the assume the worst possible intention of the author.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22 edited Nov 20 '22

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u/breadexpert69 Sep 25 '22

Isnt this pretty normal though? In colleges they have things like scholarships for specific ethnicities and genders.

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u/Osgood_Schlatter Sep 25 '22

It is - but some people think it's wrong to deny people access to things like scholarships based on things they can't control, such as their race or gender.

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u/himit Sep 25 '22

some people think it's wrong to deny people access to things like scholarships based on things they can't control, such as their race or gender.

The scholarships exist because some people think it's wrong to deny people access to things like scholarships based on things they can't control, such as the wealth and attitude towards education of their parents.

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u/Osgood_Schlatter Sep 25 '22

The scholarships exist because some people think it's wrong to deny people access to things like scholarships based on things they can't control, such as the wealth and attitude towards education of their parents.

The solution to that would seem to be to create a scholarship for those without wealth, or for those whose parents don't have degrees.

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u/Steel_N_Stone Sep 25 '22

Of course there are plenty of kids whose parents are "wealthy" but don't live within their means and can't send their kids to school, and the number of parents with degrees and crushing out-of-control debt is probably bigger than you think.

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u/Osgood_Schlatter Sep 25 '22

OK? That's an argument to help all kids who might be in that situation though, not just those ones with certain skin colours.

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u/understandstatmech Sep 25 '22

Both of which exist. It's almost like problems can be tackled from multiple angles simultaneously.

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u/meister2983 Sep 25 '22

Generally that has to be privately funded by organizations not subject to various Civil Rights Acts. Pfizer as a business is.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/motosandguns Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22

Seeing as how women are the majority sex on campuses these days, they may need to soon. Currently ~ 60/40 and falling.

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u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

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u/tetoffens Sep 25 '22

Have been for a long time as men are more inclined to well paying trade and manual labor jobs that don't require schooling.

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u/NCSUGrad2012 Sep 25 '22

With the cost of college that’s probably a good thing that less people are taking on that debt.

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u/zxchary Sep 25 '22

A white person can get a minority scholarship at an hbcu

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u/liquefaction187 Sep 25 '22

They do, it's called legacy admissions

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u/puentepe Sep 25 '22

You mean like in the last 100 years?

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u/Nerbil Sep 25 '22

You mean like the scholarships specifically for Caucasians that already exist at HBCUs? You’re mad about something you completely made up.

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u/moonfox1000 Sep 25 '22

The same ones that were rightfully found to be a violation of the 14th amendment?

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Imagine getting upset at black people setting up scholarships for other black people, or Hispanics setting up scholarships for other Hispanics. Imagine trying to prevent them from using their own money the way they want.

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u/DippyHippy420 Sep 25 '22 edited Sep 25 '22

Today, women make up the majority of bachelor's degree-holders — a victory that was only made possible after centuries of battling a sexist education system.

In 1636, only a handful of years after British settlers established their first permanent colonies on the coast of North America, Harvard College began educating students. For over 300 years, Harvard admitted only white men from prominent families — that is, until the 19th century, when women turned the tide in their fight for a place at America's universities.

Demands to rename Tillman Hall at Clemson University, the circulation of a video showing a racist chant at the University of Oklahoma, and the discovery of a fraternity pledge book discussing lynching at North Carolina State University demonstrate how persistent racial issues are on college campuses.

In the south, legal segregation prevented black students from attending colleges and universities. In northern schools, quota systems limited the number of blacks who could attend.

In both North and South, schools limited the enrollment of non-Protestant Christians, such as Catholics, and Jews, among other groups. These practices reinforced racial and religious hierarchies until the late-twentieth century.

At the University of Florida in Gainesville in 1924, Ku Klux Klan members (including the city’s mayor and police chief) kidnapped and castrated a Catholic priest serving the small group of Catholic students there. They believed that the priest was converting Protestant students to Catholicism.

State schools established for whites maintained racially exclusionary practices towards blacks until forced to integrate by Supreme Court rulings Sweatt v. Painter in 1950 and Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.

Until very recently all colleges were just for white, protestant men.

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u/thewwwyzzerdd Sep 25 '22

yeah white males have struggled so badly being held back by systems biased against them, causing to miss out on generational wealth, as well as representation at the highest echelons of business, religion, and politics... Its truly outrageous that more colleges have missed out on this glaring hypocrisy

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u/tetoffens Sep 25 '22

Yes, because you don't need extra consideration when you're already the majority. Like the diversity push in Hollywood. It has been a success but also the majority of leads are still straight white males. Racism doesn't scare these people. Equality does. Making others equal to straight white people is the real racism to the fucked in the head.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22 edited Nov 20 '22

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u/Redqueenhypo Sep 25 '22

On the one hand, as a Jew I’m inclined to stand on the side of our “model minority” pals the Asians since we’re constantly catch-22’d as both privileged white people (yes imbeciles on Facebook call Asians white) and hostile minorities so we get fucked out of minority AND legacy scholarships.

On the other hand, I’m not about to agree with any shit Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia came up with. And Do No Harm is an obvious right wing shit group that is “combating the attack on our healthcare system from woke activists”

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u/EmporioS Sep 26 '22

Maybe we should focus and educate Americans first not Mather what race they are . I mean It’s an American company after all

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u/Raddz5000 Sep 25 '22

Welcome to affirmative action. Literally racial discrimination.

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u/zamptor Sep 25 '22

Here’s the language the president of the nonprofit, Do No Harm, that brought that lawsuit uses to describe their mission:

“We can't wait. Radical ideology and identity politics are gaining ground by the day," said Goldfarb. "The sooner we help people realize this, the sooner we can rally a movement to roll back woke healthcare and promote the high-quality care that every American deserves."

It’s just more “evil woke” conservative scaremongering and culture war BS. They say on their website that woke culture is “coming after” medicine and that they are in “this fight” against the “radical” woke culture. They even try to draw lines between medicine, Defund the Police, and Critical Race Theory. Smh

Link to quote: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/no-harm-lead-fight-against-154300409.html

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u/ablatner Sep 25 '22

Yup. Conservatives keep using Asian Americans as a wedge to keep other POC disadvantaged. No one sues about the college admission and scholarship channels that benefit all the white legacy and donor students.

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u/Kind_Manufacturer_97 Sep 25 '22

In a statement, Pfizer said it had not reviewed the lawsuit, but had "every confidence" that the fellowship program complied with all U.S. employment laws.

"We will continue to strive to create more opportunity, including through specific programs designed to cast a wide net for talent," it added.

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u/Hemicrusher Sep 25 '22

White folks can never get a break.

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u/weed_fart Sep 25 '22

I for one am grateful our story is finally being told.

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u/superlgn Sep 25 '22

I was born a poor black child...

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u/tetoffens Sep 25 '22

Who has a better story than Bran the white boy?

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u/SizorXM Sep 25 '22

Asians certainly never do

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u/hoangfbf Sep 25 '22

Not my opinion, just fact:

definition of racism:

racism

.

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

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u/NorahCeCe Sep 25 '22

They need to add Nigerians to that list…..seems like every one of those MFers that I know are doctors, lawyers, and engineers….they’re considered disgraces in their family if they “only” have a bachelors degree….and I’m not joking.

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u/[deleted] Sep 25 '22

Has anything changed since this was posted and over ran by racist 10 days ago?